We had an opportunity to interview Malcolm Hearn (right) and Gerald Schwanzer (left), owners of Dance Sport International Ltd (DSI), one of the few companies in the dance world who are able to offer everything the Ballroom and Latin dancer needs, from books and shoes to dresses and cosmetics, from fabrics and rhinestones to music and DVDs.
We have a passion to preserve things and create products that save the identity and legacy of Ballroom dancing
You are one of the best known brands in the dance world and a company which doesn't specialise but actually does everything. Am I right?
[Malcolm]: Absolutely!
I don't think I can name any other company in the dance business which covers such a wide spectrum of dance related products and services.
[Malcolm]: We started many, many years ago, 35 years ago I think, and we were selling LP records and books to the dance teachers. And over the years we added more and more products to our range and here we are today, selling absolutely everything the dancer needs.
[Gerald]: That's correct. I think we are a one-stop dance shop which has anything and everything own branded. This is the difference, we have own branded products. We sell our own dresses, our own practise wear, our own shoes and our own media products. There are dance shops who buy everything but we are the only one who has own branded products for every product line. This is one of the two major principles which is our unique selling point.
Tell me the story of DSI, when and why was it created?
[Malcolm]: We can trace our roots back to 1933 actually. I am not that old (laughing). My father Geoffrey Hearn had a big dance school with Peggy Spencer in South East London. They knew Alex Moore, the writer of Ballroom Dancing and other technique books, which are still used today. Alex run the “Alex Moore Letter Service” which was a dance journal sent to subscribers around the world. At the time it was the only way the dancers from Australia or Japan could get new hints and trends without coming down to London which was the epicentre of Ballroom dancing at the time. In 1981 when Alex was 80 years old he sold his business to my Dad and Peggy. I joined few months after that to help to sell subscriptions to dance teachers all over the world. Along with that there was a small mail order company selling LP records and technique books that we had on board. Over the years I increased the inventory that we had and started selling videos from other companies. Then we started making our own videos as well, we began with Marcus and Karen Hilton. They joined us for the first video production called Ballroom Lines which was a worldwide success and moved us into a different sphere within the industry.
[Gerald]: I really like that story that you had to basically share the same room between your company and the dance studio.
[Malcolm]: Oh yes (laughing). The office we used for the sales company by day, by night was used as a dance studio. So every evening at 7 o'clock I packed everything away into a filing cabinet and cleaned up so it was ready for the dance lessons at 7:30! At 9 o'clock in the morning it was opened again. It went on for many, many years. Of course, once the inventory started increasing the studio then became the full time office. In the late 1980s we moved to the Croydon offices where we are now.
[Gerald]: I think we've been very lucky because we started in one unit and somehow the unit next to use became available and then we were taking one after the other. So it was lucky that it become available when the company grew. We started in one, and now we occupy seven.
So, in principle, Malcolm, you inherited your business from your father?
[Malcolm]: Yes
And how did you, Gerald, get into this business?
[Gerald]: Basically I was a dancer. I was born in Vienna and actually by profession I am a lawyer but I was one of those who got the bug of dancing. In the 1980s London was a mecca for dancing so I moved to London. You had to do everything to make ends meet, picking up people from the airport, painting house and painting rooms and everything. Slowly, by doing this I got in touch with few people, some connections from Germany, who started Choice of London at the time. I was there from 1993 to 1999 as a Managing Director. For various reasons I found myself looking for a new job and joined Dance Sport International with an opportunity to became a shareholder. I came with an experience in dance fashion and that complemented the range of products they were already offering and made this one-stop dance shop complete. I brought with me the fabrics, laces and that kind of connections. So, it was a good twist of fortunes I'd say, because from 1999 we went from strength to strength.
So why did you decide to change from just selling manuals and instructions to dresses?
[Malcolm]: It was a gradual change over the last thirty years.
So it wasn't one day decision?
[Malcolm]: No, it was gradually growing into it. Keith Hoyle, my business partner at the time, said one day, I think we should start making dresses. We put an advert in the local paper and found four seamstresses, a designer and within few weeks we were making the dresses. Gerald joined us later and brought materials and dress making skills to us and it has grown from there. We look at opportunities all the time. DSI TV has come about because there was a hole in the market, no one else was doing that at the major competitions. We are both passionate about the business, we don't want things disappearing, things dancers won't be able to see anymore. We publish books that show the history of dancing which we won't let to die. We want continuity.
[Gerald]: Of course we are running a business and we must make sure we have sustainable business proposition but we have a passion to preserve things and create products that save the identity and legacy of Ballroom dancing. We can engage in some project which is not profit making as such but gives a certain route and is core to our belief that doing a service to the dancing helps maintaining certain legacy that would not otherwise be protected.
I must say I am a very strong supporter of the DSI TV because I strongly belief that this is the way to go especially with a concept of subscription. Take Netflix and similar internet TV providers which operate that way. I hope it will grow and will become as popular with the dancers as your dresses, shoes or fabrics.
[Malcolm]: It would be great.
Knowing your company runs now for many years I am interested to hear how you see the evolution of dance through these years. How much it changed?
[Malcolm]: Well, fashions changed, trends changed. I recently watched one of our old DVDs and I thought how slow it was compared to the current trend and speed.
Especially Latin ...
[Malcolm]: I am not so sure if this is the right way to go because, for one, some of the footwork leaves a lot to be desired. Especially in Ballroom. I talked to some people this morning and they were shocked by some of the dancing they saw on the floor yesterday!
[Gerald]: I have to say that, generally, I think it is the right direction, generally it is still improving. It is always a question of priority. So what you see is what is most desired: the energy, the youthfulness. The energy is just not quite comparable to what was there before. It has its downside of course. But generally I think it evolves the right way. The business has changed. It is still a niche business but it has been more like a cottage industry and now, with big companies like Supadance and Chrisanne, it has grown out of that. The dancing itself is not necessarily growing so it is not healthy for the business or for the dancing as such.
Actually, when I was talking to Supadance, one of the subject we discussed was the popularity of dance. If you think outside of the Open circuit, you have ISTD, you have IDTA or Supadance League, you have thousands of dancers.
[Gerald]: Yes, you are absolutely right. It is good that dancing is shown to be approachable in a sense because we need to be careful for dancing not to become too closed. I am concerned that dancing has already become too elitist.
[Malcolm]: Some of the prices, lesson prices that are charged, are so high that the general person can't afford. So it is elitists for those who can't afford the sky-high prices.
But do they really have to go to the top teachers?
[Malcolm]: Well, I am not in that side of the business so I don't know...
[Gerald]: Well. It is a bit tricky. You certainly need a lot of money to get to the top these days whatever you say. I think it is very sad and I don't think it should be so elitist but it appears to be a fact that you have to spend a lot of money to get there. I am an eternal optimist and I think that hard work and a lot of talent will still prevail but it is certainly very difficult without putting a lot of money into it.
I am thinking more of the thousands of young couples who don't have ambition to be champions but just love dancing. Are they the same type of customers to you as the top champions?
[Gerald]: I have a wide approach, I am a fanatic of dance. I love dance totally. If you think about dancing it is one of the few activities that is all positive. I am a strong believer in it. If you think about it, there is no age restriction, you can do it from the very young age to the very end. It is by definition social. It teaches young people discipline and a certain behaviour and manners which are positive for the rest of their lives. It has a long term social implication, I doubt that anybody who was taught dancing and proper behaviours would ever end up rioting on the streets! I believe that teaching of dancing puts the young people in the right state, right behaviour for the future.
OK, who is your target as a customer?
[Malcolm]: Everybody. We target everybody from the beginner to the top. From Mums and Dads whose children just started to dance, we can supply them with books from which they can learn to dance, or DVD. To the World champion who wants the clothes or shoes. The demographics of our customers is enormous.
[Gerald]: We can clothe them for hundred pounds, we can give them a book for twenty pounds. We try to go really wide, as wide and across the board as we can. We really care a lot about the children. In particular the Juvenile market where we keep the prices really low to make it easier for them in the beginning. We really try to embrace everybody.
What do you think can be done to help popularise dancing amongst the general public?
[Gerald]: My personal view is that the way the competitions are run at the moment of time is not attractive enough for the mainstream audience. From DSI TV I learned few things. For one, the people's attention span is 1.5 to 2 hours. So even for the strongest dance enthusiasts to keep up and watch the competition which typically lasts for 10 or more hours is impossible. So it would have to be trimmed down to maybe 1.5 to 2 hours. The performer has to be more entertaining and in a different form as well to attract more people. I think, if you want something good for the industry you have to get more television exposure. Television can make it interesting for everybody and more understandable. I do believe that the general public doesn't understand six couples on the floor at the same time and can relate much more to the one couple on the floor at any one time. Also, when there is one couple on the floor you can focus on their performance. When you have six champions at the same time you don't have the same view of their figures.
Dance competition was always about comparing couples against each other, it was not about how objectively correct they are individually.
[Malcolm]: This is the dilemma. We can't sell the idea of dancing to the general population because they don't understand what they are looking at. We all do because we grew up within the business. But Joe Public, when they switch on TV, won't necessarily know why Michal Malitowski is better than Riccardo Cocchi. What makes one better than the other?
[Gerald]: For dancing to survive you need the public interest in it. Even from the economic point of view, it needs to be sustainable. If any activity is able to interest hundreds of thousands or millions of people it could get the corporate sponsorship. If you can't create a certain system that general public understands they you won't get the figures that are required to get the investment, to make the investment economically sustainable. For instance, there are no big prize money in dancing because there is not enough people prepared to watch it. If you look at Strictly Come Dancing – 150 million people watched it. If you could get 1% of that, 1.5 million core customers, you can get the corporate sponsorship. We, as a company, are too small.
So what would you change?
[Gerald]: Well, as I said, I would change the format of the competition to be more like Strictly Come Dancing. Imagine this scenario: you get the sixteen best dancers, you preselected them in some way, and then these sixteen people are put through a cup final, in a sense that you draw one against the other and you draw the dance. The reason being the results are unpredictable. When the results are predictable, it is boring. When you know the winners from the beginning it is not really interesting. Football attracts most money because it is one of the most unpredictable games. I am a football fan but I never watch the game if I know the result. So, in that new format, out of initial sixteen people in the first round you get eight winners to the next round and do the same. And for the judging, I would get one real expert Ballroom or Latin judge, one dance entertainment expert and public voting.
I've heard that idea before that at competition public should also vote
[Gerald]: Absolutely. It is a necessity. With public voting people feel included in it. Big interest brings big money which can bring big prize money. Look at the dance business now, what do the top champions do? They teach. Why should the top dance performer teach? Did you ever see Tiger Woods give golf lessons? No, but the dancers have to, because they need to earn their living. They shouldn't. They should have the prize money. And how can we create the prize money? We need to attract enough people to attract corporate sponsors to pay that money.
Did you ever think to organise such a competition?
[Gerald]: Yes, and I talked to a lot of people. But to initiate it, you need a lot of money.
[Malcolm]: This was the idea behind the DSI TV. To make watching a competition more interesting.
I must admit that watching competitions like Blackpool is hard. In the first round you have hundreds of people! It takes hours to get through the first round. Wouldn't it make more sense for the elimination rounds to be held in various places around England, and the winners of these elimination rounds could dance in Blackpool. Do you think it would help?
[Gerald]: It depends. If the interest in dancing was so great, so many people danced that they wouldn't be able to fit into Blackpool, then yes, elimination rounds across the country would be the only way. But if, like at the British Closed, you don't have enough couple to fill the semifinal there is no point of holding eliminations. So it depends on numbers of couples who are available. So you have to think of a format which can be fit into 1.5 to 2 hours of TV program and hold interest of the so called Joe Public.
[Malcolm]: I like the idea of a Grand Prix like in Formula 1. You have competitions in France, Germany, US, Spain, Taiwan and you get points. There is a system like that in WDC and WDSF but again, it is all about the prize money to attract a bigger number of couples to be willing to participate.
Top dancers could get their money for performing rather than running a school which is really a business. Being a great dancer doesn't mean you will be equally good businessman.
[Malcolm]: I am not a dancer, but I have been in this business all my life because my parents were dancers. In the end of a day I am a businessman. Gerald was a dancer and there is a synergy between us. He will think one thing, I will think another and between the two of us we will come to a solution we both think it will work for the company.
[Gerald]: Yes, I agree. But I think the dancer should concentrate on dancing. To run business is completely a different thing. The dancers could earn from performing, it is a matter of prize money. Can we attract 1.5 million viewers when we run competitions in different format? I believe so. I have been in the Strictly Come Dancing tours. The Strictly tour is mainly ladies audience. I think that dancing in this format could be nearly as popular for ladies as football is for men, because ladies in particular love it. The Strictly tour audience is 80% ladies. It could be an amazing fanbase for dancing if it was unpredictable, excitable... I think this particular element of sport is a necessity nowadays.
There are some competitions which are organised in such a way that is interesting for the Joe Public, for instance World Masters in Innsbruck, Austria where the audience is mainly the generic public.
[Gerald]: That's what I am saying. There is a huge market I believe. Live screening of Strictly Come Dancing, which we love as DSI supply all the costumes, draws huge number of people. I am sure people watch it for various reasons but perhaps 10% of them genuinely enjoy dancing. Let's be honest, it doesn't have unlimited shelf life and when it ends it will be a big void. How can we fill the void? I think if we, in dance sport, are not united and won't come with a solution we may miss on a great opportunity.
Strictly Come Dancing, or Dancing with the Stars as it is known in other countries, popularised dancing within the wider public. But in the same time caused many top dancers disappear from the competition scene and into the entertainment business.
[Gerald]: Well, it is simple, in Strictly Come Dancing you can make more money. Dancers who are known from the big screen became the household names. Purely from the commercial point of view, the ideal scenario is that you can do both. Ideal scenario is that the best dancers are getting the most money. That would be my wish. But that means you must make them the household names.
Well, most popular people are not necessarily the best in their chosen career, they are for some reason the most interesting. It is also about charisma and knowing what people want to see rather than the perfection. Do you think that, without changing the format of the competition completely, it is possible to introduce the public voting?
[Malcolm]: Yes, absolutely. It depends on the scale, to involve the big numbers you need the money to afford the infrastructure to make it work.
On a smaller scale, it should be possible to make it working for the actual spectators using an application on their mobile phone. For instance, in addition to the winners there is also a couple who won public vote.
[Gerald]: I think changes are essential. We did it already once or twice.
When?
[Gerald]: At the International Championships. The public winner was the same couple, Michal and Joanna.
Well, possibly because at the International you have the audience who actually know a lot about dancing. So it wasn't really general public voting, it was dancers voting
[Malcolm]: Yes, it is true.
Currently, the audience at competitions is always some way connected to dancing, either dancers themselves or their families so it is difficult to get the real general public vote.
[Gerald]: For this kind of promotion you would have to get help from professional promoting companies. We are not professional promoters because we are going to the same clientele all the time. That's why our niche gets more niche...
Is dancing an art or sport?
[Malcolm]: Art I think.
[Gerald]: Competitive art. There are other examples like painting competitions or song contests. Dancing is the same. There are same rules, but not real rules, it is a subjective thing.
I can see your point, for instance Eurovision song contest or Chopin Festival.
[Malcolm]: You cannot call it a sport only because it is being judged.
[Gerald]: There is a sport element in it because people have to be fit, there is no question about it. But it is not measurable, and cannot be objective.
How do you see your company in the future?
[Gerald]: We will continue doing whatever necessary to keep in going.
It is a very political answer, no concrete facts (laughing).
[Gerald]: We basically have two principles: we are a one-stop shop, we have everything the dancer needs, and we produce as much as we can ourselves, in our premises. We have to be as flexible as possible to sustain ourselves. Whatever comes up we try to treat as opportunity. We did quite a lot for Hollywood, we do a lot for West End shows, we do a lot for dancing shows. We have to evolve to do whatever is necessary within these principles to survive and remain strong.
[Malcolm]: Digital world, social media is a whole new avenue to work on. We still produce a catalogue because people want to see the products in a book form. Some group of people still prefer that rather than going online and checking the website.
[Gerald]: You have to embrace the changes, there is no other way. You have to embrace the new technologies that are available.
I know some dance companies owners worry that the new designs they put online are instantly copied in other countries... How do you cope with that?
[Malcolm]: This is something you will never be able to get away from. It has been a problem for many, many years. I remember when we started doing video tapes, Stephen Hillier was producing videos with a company called Sydney Thompson. He happen to be in China or Hong Kong and somebody said, oh, look, these are your videos on this market stall! They were all black market and selling in their thousands.
Is it damaging for the business?
[Gerald]: I can see it as a complement nowadays because you cannot stop it anyway.
[Malcolm]: It is damaging as well. Take music as an example. Ross Mitchell used to bring out some new CDs every year for Blackpool which the dance teachers liked because they had strong beats and were good for pupils. But he said to me, now I am not selling enough CDs to cover the cost for making them. We know that ourselves... Copying is killing that business.
[Gerald]: Yes, it is because we are a small market. We have the same problem with the DVDs and DSI TV.
How do you manage running the company and having a private life?
[Malcolm]: Explain what private life is (laughing)! OK, I do have a family so I do turn off and switch off because it is important that I see my daughter and have time with her and my wife. Gerald in the other hand is a workaholic and he works probably 80 hours a week, week in week out. The company would not be where it is without what he does.
[Gerald]: Generally I love what I am doing. 40 hours would bore me, 60 hours would be perfect, 80 or 90 hours regularly is not fun. But overall I enjoy it. I have no children, I have very understanding wife and I have very good parents. I think this infrastructure allows me to have the energy to do what I am doing. Otherwise I wouldn't do it. It is getting increasingly difficult to finance it with the strains of current situation.
[Malcolm]: Running a company these days is very difficult. You have responsibility to the staff to make sure you can afford to pay them every month, pay rent for the building and so on.
But in the same time businesses in the dance world were not affected so badly by the credit crunch from 2009. I can certainly see how the high streets changed in England with so many shops closed.
[Gerald]: Yes, but the recent crisis between Ukraine and Russia has hit us hard, there is no question about it. There is about 90% reduction of the Ukrainian and Russian side of the business. It has hit us because we had very good sales to these countries.
How damaging for you are cheaper products from the East Asia?
[Malcolm]: Some people prefer the cheaper route and they go that way, it is their choice. We are proud of the products we sell, they are made in England.
[Gerald]: Made in the company
[Malcolm]: We are aware of the situation but in control of it. Hopefully people will pay the market price for what we are selling, which we think is a fair price.
[Gerald]: I completely agree. You could have your products manufactured in Asia, for instance, like many companies do but I don't think this is the way to go for us. This is not our principle.
Thank you very much for an interesting conversation!
